Tribe.net. Local Connections dina http://blackbellydancers.tribe.net/thread/fbcfa322-89da-4087-a46b-fbbfe68135cb#78b86234-75d9-4cab-84d2-f77cbc65f483 2008-11-19T17:02:55Z 2008-11-19T17:02:55Z

hi candace, salaam to you :) hm I do not get the first question in <...> "coup" in French is "hit" - is it "imported" into English or does it mean something else in English?!?! Anyways I think it is almost impossible to track down what happened in colonial times exactly to bellydance.. I think had there been reports they would have long been used by ethnologists and anthropologists.. dances are pretty well studied academically.. As for the Indian women and bare midriffs.. I do not think the bellydance costumes have much to do with Indian traditional gear (where the midriff is bare even in everyday life.. there have been pictures of a Bengali delegation to the UN general assembly from 2005 I believe where female ministers spoke with a bare belly :) it looked interesting in this tie and suit environment I think!) Well I m aware of ancient Egyptian depicture of people as well as Gods and Godesses and much of their gear features bare midriffs. some sort of chest cover (for the "ordinary" working peope normally no chest cover at all), bare midriff, interesting skirted lower body cover (with "hip scarf" like ornamentation) and sandals.. I d think bellydance gear might have rather been inspired by these Egyptian images than imposed by the Brits having seen Indian saris.. but this is a layperson s opinion, and I doubt there is THE historian's view on this as I d suppose sources are missing on this question. I guess the colonial forces did not foresee future generations would have been interested in accounts on how dance was influencedb y them :) as for more guys danced: I think we need to distinguish between commercial dance and private dance. Private "belly dance like" dancing with shoulder shimmies, hip shimmies, hip circles, belly movements has always been done by men in Egypt and Lebanon from what I know and in a bit different forms in the Maghrib, and this has never stopped due to colonialism. Commercial bellydance might have emerged due to their demand, and obviously girls would be demanded to a much higher degree by male armies. And poor country girls would probably flood the "market" in any colonized or otherwise occupied country to earn money from the wealthier foreigners. I doubt there are accurate sources on whether there had been commercial dance before (most probably) and whether it was gender-wise mixed or not. There is a lot of stories in the West on "gypsy" (ghawzee) dancers performing and being considered lower class.. could well be, I have not heard this anytime before in the East. I am aware of having heard stories of Arab slavegirls bringing bellydance to Turkey, to the Ottoman Empire, and dancing at the court for high people's (not only the Sultan, but also the women at the court) pleasure. I have read about this from turkish sources, and I believe it to be accurate as both Turkish rhythms and dances are more Central Asian and have little to do with Arab women's dance (they do shoulder shimmy and such stuff, but much like in Tadjikistan, Uzbekistan, Kurdistan.. more central Asian I d like to term it, "line dances" etc) And Arab style music does exist in turkish, but it is referred to as "Arabesk" so I believe the origins of both this music and dance is pretty secured even in the Turkish language. But again, I am not sure to what degree these stories of Arab girls at the Ottoman courts are mere legends. Some poets, Arab and Turkish, have mentioned women's dance. most likely they are talking about bellydance, but who did it (commercially) and to whom, and of what heritage the dancers were... I think this is not to be secured historically unless we learn how to move back in time :) About fusion: I am personally a bit troubled about this dance I love dearly to be watered down. And I frankly do not enjoy its mixture with caribbean and latin elements. If done to Arab music it looks "wrong" to me. Maybe it takes time to get used to and possibly also "mixed" music so it is clear this is something new/different. Do you know Radio Tarifa? They sing Spanish and fuse Spanish and Maghrebine music.. it s really nice! Well that s just my personal thoughts! take care dina

dina 2008-11-19T17:02:55Z Razi http://blackbellydancers.tribe.net/thread/fbcfa322-89da-4087-a46b-fbbfe68135cb#107d73c1-e86b-4bc9-9f26-61371797a8d6 2008-05-06T01:12:42Z 2008-05-06T01:12:42Z

Wow...those are some good questions. Sadly, I don't have the answer to any of them. :-( Hopefully someone with the answer(s) will write soon. I'm eager to find out what others have to say.

Razi 2008-05-06T01:12:42Z Candace http://blackbellydancers.tribe.net/thread/fbcfa322-89da-4087-a46b-fbbfe68135cb#79913ea2-15bc-44ea-b6c3-b9eaa674d53e 2008-04-26T04:36:43Z 2008-04-26T04:36:43Z

Hi everyone, I posted this just now, and I'm curious to hear your feedback. I'm searching for guidance, clarification, good conversation, etc. This is a hot topic in a few of the tribes, especially the ones dealing with origins of "Bellydance" Re: The Ethics of FusionToday, 9:18 PM I am a newbie to bellydance (2 years) and I am just starting my research, but here's what I've picked up so far. Please clarify things for me if they are incorrect, b/c this is all about learning for me:) Here's the thing: <"But we're talking about the exchange of dance culture and not the expansion of one racial dominance over another. Unless there was a hostile belly dancer coup that I was not made aware of..."> whomever tells the story-that's the story that's told... 1.Where did our costume come from? Europeans who had been to India wanted to see Middle Eastern female dancers look like the Indian women with their midriff exposed. 2.Didn't more men "bellydance" as well?- a social culture; a social dance. Not after Europeans came. they wanted to see the women ---Objectified---it became money talks- 3. Isn't Egypt part of North East Africa? Isn't "Bellydance" a North African tradition as well as a Middle Eastern tradition since at one point in time Egypt extended into what we now call the Middle East? Why is it that it's only "Africa" if it's sub-Saharan? <"But here's an interesting question... if race were the issue then who would be at fault for the spread of belly dance into other cultural dance forms? "...> These movements are as old as time...in every culture; in every race. To take that statement one step further, and I don't even know if I should put this out there but here goes...LIFE originated in Africa/Egypt, so in terms of the dance and culture, maybe some have just not got in touch with it yet. Maybe some dancers are re-connecting with it in a way that compliments the culture (their culture) that developed later? As a dancer coming up in this time, I understand and agree with teachers/dancers saying learn the dance as it was and in the purest form that there is for your respective style. My teacher has been dancing for 30 years and newer dancers can't touch the amount of knowledge and expertise most of our experienced dancers/teachers have. I believe we should really develop those skills and keep that at the forefront of our training/teaching/performing. Having said that... But also, as a young dancer who has studied another dance style and come from a backround of Caribbean and American culture, I see the opportunity to share myself as That woman(Caribbean-American Bellydancer), sharing my comfort and freedom in being proud/comfortable with myself and my femininity. Is this not what the dance was meant to portray from the beginning? And that makes the dance come full circle for me. The next question would then be: what about establishing proper venues for each? Like spring caravan does? Or in NYC one teacher I know of puts on themed show (i.e. Rock and Roll show, Middle Eastern Jazz) once a month. There is always going to be culture exchange, especially in this time when we have access to everything on demand. Look at food- top chefs constantly push the envelope for taking tradition and making it new and different. One thing that I think we dancers forget is that they learn the correct and proper way to execute the traditional first, before being able to take elements from each and create something new. ThenI guess the next dilemma is what to call it. Does the word Fusion suffice as a catch-all? My $.02

Candace 2008-04-26T04:36:43Z